First time using them.........

by Gunner @, St Louis, Saturday, May 18, 2024, 14:35 (32 days ago)

First time using them, and I don’t like it….

May 2023 I bought a 10.5” 300 Blackout AR upper from Palmetto State Armory and instantly fell in love with the caliber, especially when I got my suppressor out of atf jail. So much fun shooting sub sonic 220 gr ammo suppressed, added bonus was the performance, crazy accurate.

Jump forward to January 2024, my annual hog/ram group hunt is booked. Easy decision is ram this year, been trying to bag a nice Corsican ram for years now but things kept getting in the way, like other types of rams that made me forget I was Corsican hunting, it happens. Hard decision was which rifle to use, last year I used my trusty Ruger UL in 243, she is now 5 for 5 with one shot drops, needed to use something else for this hunt, first thought was the Marlin 336 Cowboy in 38-55 Win with peep sights, second choice was the suppressed 10.5” 300 Blackout.

But issue #1 popped up, my eye sight with peeps works ok for general plinking but hunting accuracy was not good enough. Didn’t really want to scope the old girl, doesn’t seem right so I moved onto the second choice where issue #2 popped up. Needed ammo or a hunting bullet, as I had recently started reloading for the 300 Blackout hunting bullet choice seemed logical.

The Lehigh Defense 194 gr Max Expansion bullet made for 30 cal sub sonic loads looked like a good option as the ballistic gel performance was off the charts and Wilson Combat, (current owner of Lehigh) used the 300 Blackout in testing the bullet. Two boxes were bought, and test load made up, first and only load tried did 5 shots into a one hole group that a dime would cover, velocity was 1075 fps, recommended speed from Lehigh, load development was over!

https://lehighdefense.com/308-diameter-194-grain-maximum-expansion-bullets-01308194lhp-...

At this point my concern was the long thin hollow point on 194 gr would just act like a 5.56 55gr FMJ and punch a itty bitty hole thru the Ram and not do much damage. With the average ram size, I was afraid there wasn’t enough body mass to upset the bullet and start expansion.
5 months of waiting were over, and I was in the field chasing Corsican rams, excited to be in the outdoors hunting but also for using an AR rifle for hunting and trying a solid copper bullet, both first for me. After a lot of scouting, then a 250 yard uphill run, way to old and out of shape for that, I was staring at Corsican ram standing broadside at 35 yard, snap the rifle to my shoulder and pull the trigger, he spun 90 degrees to his right with a hit behind the shoulder and ended up facing me directly, a second shot to the center of the chest dropped him on his nose after a another in place 90 degree turn.

Most amazing thing at this point was that I was not lying on the ground from lack of oxygen but the loud whop noise on each bullet impact, I never heard such a loud bullet impact. Even the guide, who was driving up the trail to the far right from me heard the second whop. Suppressed rifle or the bullet expanding so fast causing the noise??? Not sure but am leaning toward the suppressor, but still a cool thing to hear.

[image]

Issue…..while the bullet killed I feel like it was slow in doing so, no shock effect like I get with the 243 using 95 gr Ballistic Tips. And to my surprise neither bullet exited nor showed any sign of entry until we got the skin off, that long skinny nose punched thru the skin like it was a rubber band and snapped back into place without leaving a single drop of blood on the outside. Side wound looked it was hit with a sledgehammer with a red area about three inches in size, and a hole about one inch in diameter, we found one tiny piece of pedal at the edge of the hole. Never found any hole or mark in the front area of the chest but the bullet did a buzz saw job on the inside of the body, everything in the body cavity looked like it went thru a blender including the underside of the spine in front of the tail area, he was facing slightly uphill to me on the chest shot. The inside was such a mess we decided not to dig around for the bullet.

On this size of animal, I think the old cup/lead core bullet or a Ballistic Tip type bullet would be a much better choice. In the end it was an interesting experience and I finally got my Corsican ram, oh by the way I was shocked when I walked up to him lying on ground, biggest Corsican ram I have ever seen, just huge, I noticed he stood about 3-4 inches taller in the back than others in the group when scouting and tracking him but I didn’t realize he was that big.

[image]


Gunner

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https://www.instagram.com/41gunner/
41 Mags rule, Baers rock!

Yes. The subsonics do not give the HV shock effect we are

by JohnKDM, Saturday, May 18, 2024, 14:54 (32 days ago) @ Gunner

used to these days from modern rifle velocities. They work more like the old BP cartridges.

Impact Sound: again, you are correct. The slap is really apparent shooting subs, far more detailed than the kugelschlag you can sometimes hear unsuppressed. In fact, when hunting squirrels with a suppressed subsonic 22 it is easy to tell from the difference in impact sound where the bullet landed... ie, a sullen 'thump' is a gut hit, a more solid 'whack' means ribs, and a wooded 'whock' is a skull hit.

That's discouraging. .300 BO intrigues me.

by A K Church, Saturday, May 18, 2024, 19:55 (31 days ago) @ JohnKDM
edited by A K Church, Saturday, May 18, 2024, 20:05

What is the performance of .350 Legend like, w/in the same subsonic/suppressed parameters?

PS, "Kugelschlag" is a great word. I woulda come up with "Geschossschlag", which is a kinda clumsy word.

I've not messed with sub-sonics ...

by JimT, Texas, Saturday, May 18, 2024, 20:03 (31 days ago) @ A K Church

but the sub-sonic .308 with a heavy bullet is close in actual killing ability to the .30-30. It's just a matter of physics. You cannot do without Mass and Momentum.

--
Ele era velho.
Ele era corajoso.
Ele era feio.

Col. Cooper introduced that word to me

by JohnKDM, Saturday, May 18, 2024, 21:34 (31 days ago) @ A K Church
edited by JohnKDM, Saturday, May 18, 2024, 21:38

I havent used the 350 legend, but in a similar fashion of the old BP cartridges, if we specify subsonic, the only way to obtain more effect on target is to increase bullet diameter and weight. I expect it would perform somewhat better.

However, another thing to consider: a 250gr 30cal bullet launched at 1050fps retains a surprising amount of velocity downrange. It surely drops quickly, but that retained velocity is useful compared to short and fat 'express' style bullets.

Col. Cooper introduced that word to me

by A K Church, Saturday, May 18, 2024, 22:35 (31 days ago) @ JohnKDM

Well explained. Thanks.

Yes. The subsonics do not give the HV shock effect we are

by Gunner @, St Louis, Sunday, May 19, 2024, 09:22 (31 days ago) @ JohnKDM

Problem is I mostly hunt with a 41 Magnum pistol, a 243 pushing a 95 BT @ 3,000 fps or a 416 Ruger pushing a 400 gr Sp @ 2,300 fps, all provide dramatic impacts and kills.

While the Lehigh worked as advertised, the Corsican never ran, just rotated in place. A 150 gr SP pushing 1800-1900 fps probably would show more dramatic effect but made the suppressor redundant. Heavy bullets for sub sonic loads in the 300 Blackout are long with small point, for this style of close range hunting a big, heavy blunt nose would be better. Ultimately I am just not sold on sub sonic all copper bullets for smaller game animals, but can I really qualify that on one animal taken. Be a couple of years before I will be back hunting rams as next years hunt will be for a hog as I have a Ruger No.1 in 9.3x74R sitting in the safe awaiting it turn in the woods.


Gunner

--
https://www.instagram.com/41gunner/
41 Mags rule, Baers rock!

Understand - for years, I hunted whitetails with a 454C

by JohnKDM, Sunday, May 19, 2024, 15:21 (31 days ago) @ Gunner

and for rifles it was an '06 with 150gr BTs @ 2950 or a 35WAI using a 250gr XBT @ 2600. For whitetails all of them were good 'crumplers', to borrow an African term.

A lot of people around here learned subsonic 300blk was miserable on hogs and quickly gave them up.

Have you tried using supers with a can? It reduces the noise quite well and the supersonic crack is 'out there' and it is hard to for game or other hunters to locate the shooter's position. I use one often on full power 308W and it is much more ear-friendly when hunting.

Related note: branching outside of familiar territory is what keeps me interested in hunting these days. Just me, of course, but the challenge, learning something new, and gaining new insights into some of the old gun writer's articles make it highly interesting.

In 2022 I used an 1880s British double in 500BPE - 147gr BP under 340gr paper patched cast bullets running 1900fps. Took a 9pt at just over 100yds from a sitting position. I haven't been that excited over shooting a deer since I was a teenager... it was grand.

[image]

[image]

Understand - for years, I hunted whitetails with a 454C

by Gunner @, St Louis, Sunday, May 19, 2024, 16:25 (31 days ago) @ JohnKDM

Oh yeah, big part of it this year was all the new things being done and I was excited to try it all, just a little disappointed with the bullet, over expected the job it would do. I know a lot of people highly recommend the super sonic 110gr Barnes in the 300 Blackout, which I have a box but wanted to try the sub sonic thing. In the future I think a 150 SP running 1900 fps thru the can would be interesting combo for ram hunting next time.

One of the things I always look forward to on the annual hunt is to try new bullet, gun combos. I am very attentive at the skinning shed and will take pictures of the bullet damage to the carcass to learn from all of it, I find it all very interesting.

Gunner

--
https://www.instagram.com/41gunner/
41 Mags rule, Baers rock!

I saw a culling operation in South Africa.

by JimT, Texas, Sunday, May 19, 2024, 16:48 (31 days ago) @ JohnKDM

They used suppressed .308's with full power loads. The game was not spooked by the shooting.

--
Ele era velho.
Ele era corajoso.
Ele era feio.

Culling would be a real good test.

by Hoot @, Diversityville, Liberal-sota, Monday, May 20, 2024, 07:16 (30 days ago) @ JimT

***

JD Jones on 300 Whisper Bullet weight. He started with a 250

by Rob Leahy ⌂ @, Prescott, Arizona, Monday, May 20, 2024, 13:08 (30 days ago) @ Gunner

Sierra Match King. No longer made he uses their 240 Match King. His reports from the field are awesome with the target bullet. No expansion just oscillation; the bullet will flip sideways for a bit, than the heavier base will flip back down 180 and continue to oscillate back and forth through the target. JD can explain it far better than I can... Basically this heavier bullet weight has racked up an impressive amount of kills in the field in combat. He come up to my shop last week and we shot the very first .300 Whisper and a 416 JDJ... All the while he recalled the feedback for the Delta and other folks that have used that cartridge. He specifically wondered why Wilson was using the Lehigh Defense bullet in such a light weight.

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Of the Troops & For the Troops

One Reason I Have Stayed Away from the Blackout ....

by JimT, Texas, Monday, May 20, 2024, 15:08 (30 days ago) @ Rob Leahy

J.D. was good to me when I was starting out writing. And the blackout folks just took his work on the Whisper and capitalized on it without so much as a "thank you." Having seen my Dad treated the same way I have no interest in what folks like that do.

--
Ele era velho.
Ele era corajoso.
Ele era feio.

I still don't understand the how they did that part...

by Rob Leahy ⌂ @, Prescott, Arizona, Monday, May 20, 2024, 19:29 (29 days ago) @ JimT

I've asked JD, face to face... He was kind of vague about it. Super good guy though. I really enjoy every minute around him.

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Of the Troops & For the Troops

If the link works.....

by RayLee, Monday, May 20, 2024, 19:40 (29 days ago) @ Rob Leahy

scroll down to page 12 and read doctor roger's experience with the whisper on deer.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1f3vte9d1H0y4TUpNU-MkpBfeL9u-Gtxf/view

JD Jones on 300 Whisper Bullet weight.................

by Gunner @, St Louis, Tuesday, May 21, 2024, 09:45 (29 days ago) @ Rob Leahy

I always liked JD, talked to him a couple times over the years, good guy, pushed him to write a book or two but he said it wasn't worth his time and in the end it would cost him money to publish it.

My guess on the Lehigh was they wanted the long, thin nose so when it expanded the pedals were long, I assume a heavier bullet would have short stubby pedals and they were going a bigger cross section.

Kevin Brittingham, one of the main guys who developed the 300 Blackout for special forces units credits JD in interviews when asked about the early days of the process.


Gunner

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https://www.instagram.com/41gunner/
41 Mags rule, Baers rock!

JD Jones on 300 Whisper Bullet weight.................

by JimT, Texas, Tuesday, May 21, 2024, 19:35 (28 days ago) @ Gunner

That's good to hear. I never saw anything from them about JD.

--
Ele era velho.
Ele era corajoso.
Ele era feio.

IMAGES showing now.........

by Gunner @, St Louis, Sunday, June 02, 2024, 21:05 (16 days ago) @ Gunner

nt

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https://www.instagram.com/41gunner/
41 Mags rule, Baers rock!

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