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I am an idiot because I would 100% get an NEF Handi-Rifle in .45-70 and rechamber it in .450 Black Powder Express. Then I would tell everyone it was my express rifle.

Never mind about being pretty much comprehensively unable to obtain ammunition. I would cast my own bullets and load my own. Never mind about it giving me absolutely zero objective advantage over the original chambering; objectivity isn't what we're about here.

What it would do is give me reason to own brass, dies, and bullet molds for .450 BP Express, which would in turn justify my subsequent purchase of an Alexander Henry falling-block rifle in said caliber. This rifle would be coon-fingered, cleaned, oiled, polished, fawned over, hung on the wall, and occasionally shot, but in any event it would be a thing of beauty and the end goal of this whole game.

Once the Alex Henry was procured, I would sell off the Handi-Rifle at a bargain-basement rate to any of you fellows that wanted to repeat that process. Think of it as the "enabler" rifle.

-AaronB

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The early 450bpe used a coiled case with a separate base, sort of like a shotgun shell. The later version with a solid brass case has different dimensions and the brass case will not fully chamber in the earlier guns. Not an issue with a Handi, but mind the early originals. They can be opened up with a 450NE reamer, which is what the 450bpe solid case became with the introduction of nitro powders.

This 1870s one belonged to a customer and had some issues, particularly in the locks. I like to think it was dropped out of a howdah in India when a tiger attacked, but I am weird.

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The 1870s Rodda 450bpe is on the right, my 1880s Braddell 500bpe on the left.

Due to an odd auction glitch that was never explained, I lost the bid an Alex Henry 450bpe single - but get this - it sold to someone else for less than my max bid. File that under 'Things You Remember In The Middle Of The Night'.

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Hi John, and thanks. I had forgotten that you played with these... feel free to get out your "envious" crayon and color me envious.

I have discovered that of course one may rent a .450 Nitro Express reamer. I'm thinking that running into the older rifle's chamber would be a fairly simple hand operation. Reaming the Handi-Rifle might be more than I wanted to take on at my skill level; getting the extractor right would be the trick.

-AaronB

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Easily done on the coiled case chamber and works well.

Haven't recut a Handi, so unsure of any gotchas.

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My dad bought one to hunt with since he liked hunting with a light barreled H&R 12 ga. He nor I liked shooting it. I tried all sorts of loads to find one he didn't find objectionable, and we couldn't. And I didn't blame him.

We have one of those heavy barrel slugsters in 12ga, a light slim slug barreled one in 12ga and one in 10ga. So it's not like I'm not used to them. My Marlin loads were VERY quickly ruled out. Trapdoor loads were still no fun. Even the load I shoot in my Contender Pistol I didn't like shooting in the Handy Rifle. Doesn't make a lot of sense but it was true. It got sold quick and he went back to hunting with the 12ga.

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A handi-rifle you don't want to shoot... that's the PERFECT reason to replace it with an Alex Henry single-shot. I love it when a plan comes together.

Thank you!

-AaronB

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I have no way to measure it, so this is based off the online calculators.

30-06, 8-9lbs, different loads, 24-28ftlbs recoil

45-70, 8-9lbs, different loads, 24-28ftlbs recoil

45-70 +P, 8-9lbs, different loads, 45-50ftlbs recoil

450bpe double, 8.5lbs, standard black powder load, 50ftlbs

500bpe double, 8.5lbs, standard black powder load, 68ftlbs

Black powder has more unburned solid ejecta, so it kicks more than smokeless equivalent loads. The later Nitro For Black (NFB) loads used a heavier bullet at similar velocities to achieve similar recoil impulses and regulation in the earlier BP doubles.

Shooting twenty rounds of standard 500bpe will give you a sore... cheek, not shoulder.

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I have heard a lot of stories about the kick of the old H&R "Topper" design, of which the NEF Handi-Rifle is a variant. "It's got a stock like a two by four," my cousin used to say, accounting for what seemed to be extra-heavy recoil from the old Topper 12-gauge we had around the place.

I will agree, the buttstock on the H&Rs and the NEFs seems pretty artless, completely unlike the lovely and thoughtful wood design on the big-bore rifles built for hunting dangerous game.

But what particular aspects of stock design enable the stock to reduce the punishment of recoil, i.e. "perceived recoil"? I'm wondering whether a redesigned stock on any light single-shot could improve the matter.

-AaronB

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It would indeed. Stock fit isn't just for shotguns. Some here might remember the Steyr M95 I converted to 45-70. It would easily handle +P pressure. The original thin combed stock has about a 12" LOP and the rifle weighs 7lbs. Uncorking 540grs Saecos at 1650fps HURTS.

Another point. The English rifle builders carefully designed the weight around the cartridge. Most of the 450/500bpe black powder doubles weight about 8.5lbs. A bit later, there were in-between nitro proofed BPEs and those weighed around 10lbs. The full NE doubles weighed somewhere around 12lbs.

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The 12ga is THE EXACT SAME gun,, except it was probably lighter, but I didn't mind shooting it as much and the .45-70.

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…..on the recoil, or so I’ve been told.

Even though the ejecta mass is approximately the same, the constriction of the bore allows the shotgun to “flow” smoother than the rifle. Trying to squirt the same amount through a large ID tube and a smaller does make a difference.

Otony

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...but we were shooting some pretty "putt putt" loads, relatively speaking, and low pressure vs much heavier slugs going nearly as fast.

Dunno. Not that it really matters at this point. Sold it to a friend who really wanted it for some reasons. In all likelihood he's never fired it.

This all has reminded me there's a 30-30 Handi Rifle stashed somewhere here abouts that I need to find and see what I can do to improve the trigger on. Oringially bought by my brother in law, with the intention that his son would use it hunting. By the time he became of age he'd lost all interest in hunting or shooting. I ended up with it when BnL passed. :-(
But my other sister's.... son's... son is just itching to shoot and hunt and will be able to in a couple years.

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We can measure/calculate things like pressure and recoil, but perceived recoil is extremely subjective and depends on a lot of variables.

One of those is rise time. If we imagine two cartridges, both with a 20Kpsi average pressure, fired in absolutely identical firearms giving markedly different impressions of recoil, my personal suspicion is the rise time of the pressure curve. Many local people perceive a 30-06 to kick horribly, but I have seen them shoot 100rnds of high brass 12ga at a late season dove shoot with no complaints.

One extreme analogy would be comparing 0-100mph in the family car to a top fuel dragster (.8s) - it will feel different. I think we put too much emphasis on the actual pressure and not enough on the full pressure curve in this case.

Really fast rise times (acceleration) coupled with high pressures will batter mechanical objects with excessive tolerances. Famous story about Winchester chambering their beefed up 1894 XTR in 454C - even though it could handle the pressure, the tolerances and the acceleration opened up the headspace in just a handful of shots.

It's the old 'big shove' vs 'sharp punch' and people react differently.

Then you try a full power 500NE and realize it combines a BIG SHOVE with a SHARP PUNCH. LOL!

Just my theory,

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My son has a youth model .223 H&R/NEF and although short, it has a nicely shaped synthetic stock. I would think that design with a few extra inches would handle better than your average wood shotgun stock on those single shots.

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We have a store chain out here the PNW that is called BiMart. Think a half scale Walmart with better merchandise.

They sell the CVA Scout in 45-70 for less than 400 bucks, as low as 379 I believe.

If you are determined to follow this course, it is an infinitely better rifle than the H&R offering. The barrels are made by Bergara, and their barrel shop was trained by Mr. Shilen.

YMMV of course,

Otony

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Mods were of a Williams aperture sight, and the tallest front sight the factory offered-.22 Hornet.

It was good for a 3 shot group at 100 yards of 1 1/2", with iron sights, me pulling the trigger, and using the first factory ammo I laid hands on. Winchester 300 grain.

It lacked nothing shooting-wise. With a good shot, I most expect it would have grouped yet mo bettuh.

But I never enjoyed shooting it. The fact it liked the hot-ish 300 grain stuff made it even more intimidating.

One of the supremo good luck events of my life was finding a guy at a gunshow. He was selling used rifles he brought down from the Alaska market. Never saw him before or since.

He had a weary looking 1979 Marlin 1895, with thin bluing, some loss of stock varnish, wood dents, and a little red freckling under some of the thin blue. A rifle which had been in rain, a certainement. Complete, and seemed to cycle as it should.

3 BILLS, out the door! I had been looking for a deal on a 95 since I was old enough to buy long guns on my own. Around 33 years. TAKE MY MONEY NOW!

Now it was good for 2 1/2 at best, and more often 3", 3 shots, 100 yards, me pulling the trigger, blah blah blah. But it was fun to shoot, and with the 405 Cowboy stuff, downright pleasant. It ran flawlessly, and I wasn't horrified if it got some rain on it. Point being: The extra pound or so made it all the better.

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Just curious, and I know little of these things, but would the .45/70 twist rate work properly for a lighter ‘express’ bullet? It seems I remember reading that the .45-90 was considered somewhat of an ‘American express’ rifle generally having more powder and less lead for a flatter shooting deal and that the -90 had a different twist rate than the .45-70. I don’t know if that would be an issue with your idea.

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Unlikely to be an issue since the lighter (shorter) bullet would need less twist than a heavier (longer) one.

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You don’t think it would spin a 300gr lead bullet apart?

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Based on my 500bpe experiments, I don't think it will.

Typical factory 45-70 twist is 1:20 or 1:22 with the heavy bullet long range rifles being an exception. Looked up the CVA Scout mentioned and it is 1:20.

My 500bpe has a 1:26 twist and I have recently pushed 15bhn 328gr PP bullets to 2025fps average seeking regulation with black powder.

Not a lot of standards back in the BPE days, and yet the Adams & Tait (sometimes spelled Tate) barrel makers could probably be considered to be making a 'standard' twist since a lot of firearms makers used their rifled tubes. My Braddell used them, and you can see their "A & T" stamp and their barrel serial numbers which were also likely used to keep track of money owed Henry for use of his rifling. Now wish I had measured the 450bpe twist while it was here.

Granted, not an exact comparison, but it does illustrate my thought process.

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