Purdy by yimminy tough, you betcha, fer sure...

by former hater of plastic, Saturday, June 23, 2018, 19:47 (2346 days ago)

I always wanted a folder I could not break.

Pertinent details would be 4" blade, circa 5" handle, 1/4" diameter blade stop against frame preventing lateral or upward vertical movement, 1/4" diameter blade pivot, blade and both scales 3/16ths" thick, total weight, just under 8 ozs.

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Purdy by yimminy tough, you betcha, fer sure...

by bj @, Saturday, June 23, 2018, 20:05 (2346 days ago) @ former hater of plastic

That brand is expensive but respected for quality. I've read negative comments about the company owner but I never was interested enough to research them. I owned a similar blade made by the ZT division of KAI, the ZT 0561 with Elmax steel. It was similar size to yours but a bit lighter. I eventually sold mine because the blade was a bit thick for actual cutting.

Tough is relative and some people say if you want tough you should just carry a fixed blade, but that Hinderer is certainly way over on the tough end of the scale.

sure, folk can say just carry a fixed blade....

by former hater of plastic, Saturday, June 23, 2018, 21:39 (2346 days ago) @ bj

but, I would like to see them wear one to church, post office, school, movie theaters, athletic events, and not be just weird in doing so, and needlessly riling folk, even if legal. All four knives are circa 9", and circa same weight, to which must be added sheath extra thickness and weight. Yes, I carry sheath knives, but the folder is world's easier, and nearly as tough.

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the main advantage of the fixed blade....

by former hater of plastic, Sunday, June 24, 2018, 10:53 (2345 days ago) @ former hater of plastic

at least, with knives with more compact handles, such as these, is that although same open length, weight, and even thickness, the folder requires the larger handle to enclose a shorter blade, so these fixed blades offer 5" of blade and 4" of handle, vs 4" of blade and 5" of handle. Many fixed blades would actually split that difference. But, again, the folder stowed size and thickness can't be beat.

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As for the owner, anyone who watches shop videos

by former hater of plastic, Saturday, June 23, 2018, 21:58 (2346 days ago) @ bj

will see a nice place that seems to treat folk working there more than decently, relaxed pace and maybe even a cool place to work. Compare a video of a Hinderer knife assembler vs a video of a Reeve knife assembler, and see who seems well practiced at needing to work warp speed.

And they turn out a first rate product, only maybe two dozen employees, doing small runs of this and that, whether knives or parts, with quite finite supply. He baldly states, and truthfully that nobody can set up a knife both for a gravity slinger, and flipper trigger type, and knives easily adjusted to personal likes, and info all over the net.

I suppose folk can have a problem with such a guy. I do not.

Rick's target market has always been military,

by former hater of plastic, Sunday, June 24, 2018, 13:49 (2345 days ago) @ former hater of plastic

and 1st responder, with discounts for them. The centering of blade, the action of knife, are all user adjustable, if the safe lock engagement setting as it leaves shop is not to a buyer liking. Virtually every complaint made as to Rick and his working tools are by vollectors, and fastest-flicker addict crowd, trashing a product because not set to their own personal likes, and mad when shop will not, or cannot, do it.

Any adjustment of a frame lock will adjust pivot tension, and also adjust lockbar pressure against side of blade for detent effort and drag. This latter also will mess with pressure of lock engagement, and such adjustments will likely change blade centering, which also then will need adjusting.

It is impossible to please them all. Too many variables. So, knives go out the door set in a safe mode, and any buyer should know that, as discussed everywhere and also mentioned on his own site. You buy one, have good tools (spelled WIHA) and Rick's cool field tool for messing with it.

as for cutter, these knives are designed to

by former hater of plastic, Saturday, June 23, 2018, 22:26 (2346 days ago) @ bj

save your cutter. This is the one you break out to use on stuff that would wreck the nice cutter, or digging/rooting/prying, and only an adequate cutter. This the one used to cut a seat away to free an accident victim. Not an office paper cutter.

This particular blade style is the least cuttin'est..

by former hater of plastic, Sunday, June 24, 2018, 00:31 (2346 days ago) @ former hater of plastic

The same knife in his spearpoint a notably better cutter/carver, but still no box knife or whittler. This "spanto" blade about his strongest, with thickest edge and tip, and what I wanted, as other smaller sharp knives I have, and carry also.

They make runs of all manner of blade styles, some quite fanciful, not my cuppa joe or tea. They also have done thinner blade runs and in the 3.5" knives, thicker blade runs as thick as the 4", based often on numerous requests from 1st responders and military types. Plus, they make a small herd of less massive knives in runs, of different models, and markedly different styling.

I simply wanted the strongest of the lot, as normal knives, I got.

In the ZT comparison, the ZT is a thinner blade,

by former hater of plastic, Saturday, June 23, 2018, 22:36 (2346 days ago) @ bj

by quite a bit, 0.185" vs 0.160" and actually thinner than the next size down Hinderer 3.5" blade 0.165". So, if you thought THAT one not your fave cutter....

for further comparisons...

by former hater of plastic, Sunday, June 24, 2018, 02:39 (2345 days ago) @ former hater of plastic

the top two knives are standard 1/8",0.125 thick, the Spyderco of Endura size, 3rd down is 0.145, and then the 0.185 4", which also is the only one to make 4".

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in further ZT comparison, sort...

by former hater of plastic, Sunday, June 24, 2018, 10:47 (2345 days ago) @ former hater of plastic

the bottom three knives are the 3.5", the ZT being 3.75", and same stock thickness as bottom two, only two, though, as the one directly under the 4" has the same thickness of blade as papa bear.

Both the compact thicker, and the largest, were due to requests from military and 1st responders, the largest makes most sense and came next after the normal 3.5", big guys, gloved hands, etc, and perfect for that, with gobs of room. The thicker blade also makes most sense on the larger as for being a cutter.

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it's not only the blade thickness

by bj @, Sunday, June 24, 2018, 18:58 (2345 days ago) @ former hater of plastic

I'm not sure I objected so much to the overall blade thickness of the ZT as I did the thickness right behind the edge. I've known people that had the reground to more normal thickness.

exactly, and thick edge for toughness....thin chips/breaks,

by former hater of plastic, Sunday, June 24, 2018, 20:14 (2345 days ago) @ bj

escpecially on a knife made, purpose made, for abusive work. Folk are barking up the wrong tree when buying such knives for slicers. To make the blade more delicate on the ubertough handle, leaves one with a grossly overweight fine cutter, as the handle serves no purpose.

a word about thickness and wondersteels....

by former hater of plastic, Sunday, June 24, 2018, 17:00 (2345 days ago) @ bj

powdered metal may show fine in an engineer designed test for structural elements, as for notch test and etc.

But, that is not knife use, and powdered metals generally chip and break edges and tips when stressed. They are no manner of spring, once the stuff starts to flex, all bets are off. And they are very stiff, and resist that flex...to a point.

So, a hard use knife of the stuff, where its main advantage is edge retention in controlled cutting of abrasive substances, needs to be stout. Stout as in edge and tip, to resist, as well as possible, that flex which leads to failure mode.

So, Rick has the recipe correct, as for powdered stainless use. The best steel for such a hard use knife would be in the 80CrV2 class with salt bath, second choice 5160...
..but everybody wants stainless. So, we are back to square one, and better make it stout and poorer knife, rather than lose edge or tip.

a word about thickness and wondersteels....

by bj @, Sunday, June 24, 2018, 19:11 (2345 days ago) @ former hater of plastic

Stiffness is measured as modulus of elasticity and is virtually the same for all steel. High carbon, low carbon, stainless, modulus of elasticity is the same for all of them. You may be talking about ductility, sometimes called toughness although most people don't understand what toughness is. The powdered metal process increases ductility somewhat but an alloy with low toughness isn't magically transformed by the PM process, just slightly improved. For instance CPM154 should be a little better than 154CM. A steel with increased toughness might just deform rather than chip.

S35VN as in the first knife you showed is intended to provide improved ductility over a more standard steel such as 154CM or S30V. It provides good knife performance while still being able to be sharpened by the owner unlike some of the more esoteric steels. CRK uses it for the same reason. Elmax as used by ZT is another stainless steel that has improved toughness. The steels that I know of that have toughness beyond these such as S3V and Cruwear are only semi-stainless.

Nope, am talking about how powdered metal

by former hater of plastic, Sunday, June 24, 2018, 20:11 (2345 days ago) @ bj

generally chips or breaks when flexed, whether in what is hoped is an elastic spring manner, or worst case, a hoped deformed ductile manner....generally it does neither and chips/breaks.

This is why there are very few, if any, powdered metal springs or hammers. And a knife often called upon to take those manner of loads, whether prying or chopping or batoning.

This is with current technology as applied to knife making today, in any case.

The stuff is great for large machine shears and cutters set up for a constant known material, where alloy can be tailor selected for use, whether paper or metal.

But, just because it is new, does not make it better, and just because a steel maker, does not make one understand knives. Folk today are addicted to flavor of month, and have adopted homemade lab techniques for proclaiming superiority, when their tests and lab tests and knife manufacturers pushing flavor of month steel tests, bear no resemblance to the real world, unless an office or warehouse worker.

Even then, when that great cardboard cutter hits a staple, it often is a very bad thing. Micro chip has entered common vocabulary, thanks to PM, and a read of a Spyderco forum on fans trials and tribuoations with latest and greatest is illuminating.

Nope, am talking about how powdered metal

by bj @, Sunday, June 24, 2018, 23:41 (2345 days ago) @ former hater of plastic

Knives don't use powdered metal, that is what Kimber was using to make 1911 parts. The Carpenter particle process is an improved process for alloying. Microchipping is nothing new and affects common steels such as S30V before Carpenter's process came into being, and S30V is pretty close to S35VN.

BJ, you have a wonderful technical vocabulary

by former hater of plastic, Monday, June 25, 2018, 00:29 (2345 days ago) @ bj

and thank you so much for the corrections of powder vs particle phrasing. And also for semantics lessons on break and chip resistant.

However, the new wondersteels still are far less giving and far more breaking when stressed, whether at edge or entire blade, than tradition steel, in whatever wording you care to use. Folk trying to make swords of the stuff know its limits, nobody uses it for lawn mower blades, or trustworthy machetes, and if you want a hard use knife of the stuff, it has better be beefy in every dimension, including edge and tip, especialy when it impacts that unexpected staple, black hard wood knot, misses a hit and strikes a rock or twisted to break something.

I am trying to explain the knife and the why of the design in layman's terms, and honestly really and truly not wanting a nitnoid debate over terminology. If you want to believe a large hard use PM blade is equal or superior in anything but edge holding over more standard steels given just as sophisticated a heat treat, please go right ahead, and can even go after all the top drawer smiths and explain to them they have it all wrong.

and not wishing ANY particle sintered steel shorted,

by former hater of plastic, Monday, June 25, 2018, 00:46 (2345 days ago) @ former hater of plastic

as far as I recall, 17yrs or so ago, S30V was introduced as the first gee whoopidy particle steel, and has always been one. And chipped and broke, and generally replaced by S35Vn to try to address chipping and breaking problems. But, what do I know? Certainly not to confuse powder or particle in conversation, so maybe somebody WAS managing to make a normal steel in same alloy. But, it would have been even more fragile.

Interesting and entertaining discussion

by Catoosa, Monday, June 25, 2018, 10:38 (2344 days ago) @ former hater of plastic

But, my latest knife project is cleaning and refurbishing a small/medium sized utility knife made many years ago by a renowned local blacksmith named Luther Piercey. Mr. Luther used old saw blades and treated them in his forge by a process that has been lost since he passed. Although thin and light, his blades are stiff hard and strong, and though not easily sharpened, once done properly the shadow will take hair off your arm. They are prized hereabouts, and I was fortunate to find this one.

Guess I'm jest too old-fashioned.......

i am wit chu, boss....

by former hater of plastic, Monday, June 25, 2018, 12:54 (2344 days ago) @ Catoosa

I have exceptional hand forged which will work rings around any new stuff, the S35Vn in stainless and the 3V non-stainless the best they have offered, to date, everything else even more fragile, even if it cuts cardboard, forever.

Much of the new stuff shows owners finding their new latest greatest chips even cutting cardboard, unless polished to a mirror finish. Just look up any steel and go to Spyderco forum to see owner experiences, and see what it takes to even make the stuff work for them, and it will leave you aghast. Am referencing Spyderco as they put out near every steel possible, and heat treats are normally exactly as specified. Simply search steel name plus spyderco forum. Reeve was instrumental in the first wondersteel, S30V, and had to both go to S35Vn, and thicken blade profiles, due to blades not holding up.

Likewise, would love to put a production knife such as those made of old 0170-6 Sharon, or 0170-6C Crucible/DM-1 , either given Dan Maragni heat treat with marquench/martemper in molten salt baths as used on Cold Steel Carbon V, early Beckers and a few large Blackjacks, and same steel in the old Case and Western 1095CV blades, against any modern particle metal with blades of same profile and size, and sophisticated heat treat.

If you look at any comparison charts of powder/particle steels, you will find their origins with the company making the stuff, with comparison metals not taken to optimum performance levels in heat treat nor hardness, the charts a very stacked deck, as knife owners have discovered.

I would love a Hinderer, original topic, and as already mentioned, in 80CrV2 chrome vanadium silicon heavy duty spring steel, as blade could be lightened quite a bit over current profile. Winkler and the Navy SEALs are quite pleased with his hard use Belt Knife for whom it was developed as an issue item for Red and Blue squadrons in Afghanistan as a hard use utility knife of same purpose as the Hinderer.

But, the market would not buy it....

anyhow, i hope you enjoyed the show-n-tell....

by former hater of plastic, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 19:28 (2343 days ago) @ former hater of plastic

as that was all it was hoped to be, a discussion of it, the why design, materials, build style, pluses and minuses, and any questions answered.....but, that just ain't gonna be, is it?....well, for an "unbreakable" pocket knife, and still of some utility, it still seems pretty cool to me...

BJ, you have a wonderful technical vocabulary

by bj @, Monday, June 25, 2018, 21:54 (2344 days ago) @ former hater of plastic

I think a lot of the research in the esoteric steel is to make it more wear resistant. People used to say that carbon steel was much better than stainless steel. In terms of edgeholding the best current stainless steels are as good as the best carbon steels. But in toughness, carbon steels are typically better, even the older cheap carbon steels. Because of the toughness, and the price, is why most tools are made with the older carbon steels. I think a piece of the esoteric steel sufficient to make a 4" blade for a folder might cost up to $50. Nobody wants to put several hundred dollars of steel into a hammer.

For the most part the high performance steels are made for industrial use, tool and die work, etc. They aren't made for knives because the knife market is too small. Knifemakers have picked through the different offerings of the steelmakers and chosen steels to try in knives. Spyderco for instance chooses a lot of steels to try that nobody else has tried in knives.

Look...this place was near deader than a dodo for a few days

by former hater of plastic, Tuesday, June 26, 2018, 23:46 (2343 days ago) @ bj

and I thought I would try to liven it up with some show and tell. To which you as first and most vocal, damned the knife with faint praise from your experience with a Chinese copy, and then took issue with statements as to why the knife designed the way it is due to limitations of stainless powder, err, particle steel, as well as correct that widely used vocabulary. Tell you what...YOU post something interesting. I thought this was a forum, not The Argument Room. You can have it to yourself.

and, quite frankly, considering the several times,

by former hater of plastic, Wednesday, June 27, 2018, 00:07 (2343 days ago) @ former hater of plastic

I have gone through a great deal of trouble to post photos and tap out text on a cell phone, of knives and guns and have had pretty much the same response of generally being alone in an echo chamber, including even when posting a nice old 1960 Colt SAA, and changed up only this time by somebody only wanting to turn that effort into only an argument thread, will not be wasting anymore such effort.

I've enjoyed reading your treatise...

by pokynojoe, Wednesday, June 27, 2018, 08:19 (2342 days ago) @ former hater of plastic

I hope you reconsider.

Look...this place was near deader than a dodo for a few days

by bj @, Wednesday, June 27, 2018, 19:48 (2342 days ago) @ former hater of plastic

You're doing better than I am, I can't post photos.

and, a word about carry...

by former hater of plastic, Sunday, June 24, 2018, 17:41 (2345 days ago) @ bj

personally, I do not see this type of knife as any manner of "pocket knife"...a ball and chain swinging in the breeze, to me, or pocket full of scrap metal on which to sit, and I have worked too hard in my life to voluntarily now sit on uneven hard metal objects.

To me, it is an IWB proposition, protected from snags, clips hung and bent, knives yanked out of pocket, clothing torn. Safe and snug IWB and weight far better supported, and nearly forgotten unless needed.

a word about thrust bearings aka washers....

by former hater of plastic, Monday, June 25, 2018, 16:24 (2344 days ago) @ bj

something else for folk to obsess and argue over. Rick uses nylon/teflon, others do, and then others use phosphor bronze.

The plastic is slicker, very low compressibility, while bronze adds friction, and lasts longer. Both can be swapped for other, with zero problem, and easily found.

And in machinery, BOTH are considered consumables to be replaced periodically. To me, arguing over them is akin to arguing over trash, and whose trash takes longer to hit the trash can.

Use whatever pleases you. I was a fan of bronze, until I saw how frictionless this knife is, with MY set-up just enough detent pressure to hold blade closed, but can be shaken open with a flip, and normal opening simply boosting blade open with flipper and finishing with a light flip, and blade falls closed when lock disengaged. And all frictionless.

And Rick sells an $8 package of what I assumed was a set of washers and clip screws, but which turned out to hold circa 4pr of them, and about a dozen small clip screws, none ever actually counted. And original installed washers holding up fine. If I were low crawling anymore, it would be different, I am sure.

Rick's handy $75 field tool a great gadget, as it has the non-marring perfect fit pivot spanner, and equally perfect slotted bit for pivot cap, along with a proper hex drive for handle screws. You need more than than for total teardown (such as a 0.050 hex for stabilizer and #1 phillips for clip), but for field cleaning, an excellent gadget.

I have yet to find a single problem with the washer choice, and have yet to find a single thing not perfectly executed on the knife. The Ti scale a late addition, and is perfection when installed as for spacers circumference inside knife the same paper thickness from scale edge on either scale, screws install seamlessly but without marring sides of screws, lanyard holes precisely aligned. THIS is modern manufacturing.

And, a word about edging/sharpening....

by former hater of plastic, Monday, June 25, 2018, 17:16 (2344 days ago) @ bj

Another subject of often mindless argument in proclaiming superiority. Totally dependent upon use, the edge able to power through knots in wood while stripping limbs or cutting thick dirty rope, generally not the edge you want for effortless paper slicing, and visa versa, although I own some fine knives which can do both, for a mighty ling time.

The Hinderer edging is relatively obtuse for holding up to hard use, and also left a relatively rough finish. Rick explained why in an anecdote from years back, making knives in a chicken coop. He wanted to do an ultimate sharp edge, able to literally split a human hair, and he succeeded, using a microscope...and that fine polished thin edge would cut nothing else. So, he leaves the production knives edges toothy, for best general purpose hard use cutting.

While again discussing design, the mindset behind his knives arises from an anecdote of trying to free a trapped woman in an auto accident, cutting free chunks of seat for clearance for one reason or the other, and the rescue knife lock failed, and the genesis of his stabilizer idea, and his knife builds, in general. His motto is dependable knives....not best, not ultimate weapon carried by ultimate warriors, no blasting of names of who uses them and where (and quite a list that would be)....simply, dependable.

Purdy by yimminy tough, you betcha, fer sure...

by ERSisk @, Sunday, June 24, 2018, 11:28 (2345 days ago) @ former hater of plastic

I love it. Looks to be a dmn fine every day, tractor riding tough knife to me. Handle shape looks, comfortable for hard use.

The handle is all kinda big and roomy...

by former hater of plastic, Sunday, June 24, 2018, 13:34 (2345 days ago) @ ERSisk

The stonewashed solid Ti handle beats out the already quite good G10 plus liner, at only 3/10ths oz weight gain. The G10 is not stonewashed to slightly break edges of bevels as with the titanium, and titanium a soapy tacky unslick metal very unfriendly to uncomfortable temperature changes. You can heat one end of a piece to red hot, and hold opposite end with bare hand. Plus, I plain wanted roughest possible.

Again, the spearpoint version a better cutter, and always one of the thinner blade "slicer" versions, but that seems rather counter to original design for military/civilian abuse, such as breaking airdropped ammo pallet straps or digging evidential empties out of asphalt.

as to big and roomy....

by former hater of plastic, Sunday, June 24, 2018, 14:34 (2345 days ago) @ former hater of plastic

cannot find a shot of such, but about same amount of handle showing aft, on size 6 med gloves hand.

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still waiting on the 10mm review....nt

by former hater of plastic, Sunday, June 24, 2018, 16:48 (2345 days ago) @ ERSisk

nt

still waiting on the 10mm review....nt

by ERSisk @, Monday, June 25, 2018, 08:08 (2344 days ago) @ former hater of plastic

Finishing up new laminate floor today. Going to the range this week. Will post results.

flooring......eeek!.....nt

by former hater of plastic, Monday, June 25, 2018, 12:58 (2344 days ago) @ ERSisk

nt

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