My theory is that if a deer is spooked and adrenaline is flowing, it will take a Mack truck to drop one instantly, or a hit to the spine.

Several bucks, a doe and two hogs over 450 pounds, the smallest one we attempted to weigh and he started breaking the tree branch we typically hung the scale over as the scale hit 450. We stopped and hung him from a steel pole fixed to bumper after that. Every one of them killed with a 300 Hornady Interlock JHP just over 2250 fps. Both of the hogs literally dropped in their tracks. Every deer ran between 15-30 yards. When you shoot a hog through both shoulders with an adequate bullet they tend to drop right there...at least that has been my experience. The only two deer I've shot that dropped in their track was a buck in Del Rio with a 4" 629 loaded with a 240 XTP over 18.5g 2400 and doe I shot with a 5.5" Blackhawk 45 loaded with a 260g Keith bullet over the same powder charge as the 44 Magnum. Both required a finishing shot though.

I can't recall (right now) any "bang, flop" type kills. Nearly all of the big game I've shot traveled at least a short distance. 'Short' might be a step or two or might be a country mile. I haven't taken any game whatsoever with my .45-70's but there have been, ahem, 'a couple' 35 caliber cartridges in the mix.

.35 Remington with 210gr cast FN. First shot on a decent sow was low and broke the off side leg. Hunter error 100%. We chased it for a while and found her in a deadfall and one to the boiler room ended her day.

.356 Winchester with 200gr FTX. Big sow quartering away was hit in behind the ribs and exited the off side shoulder/chest. Turned and took a step or two and fell down.

.358 Winchester with 225gr Game Kings. A decent boar was broad-sided at 3 or 4 yards and took off like it's tail was on fire. We caught up to it about 100 yards later absolutely dead-dead. A second pig was shot quartering towards me at around 35 yards. It wheeled and ran maybe 40 yards and piled up.

.35 Whelen also with 225gr GK's. A ~225lb boar was running along a fence line. First shot was in the front chest angling out the back paunch. Never missed a beat and ran past me. Second shot was the opposite; in the back and out the front. Still never slowed down. We found it piled up in a little draw dead as a stone maybe 75 yards away.

.350 Remington Magnum also with 225gr GK's. We were literally beating the brush and a 250lb or so boar ran out the far side. I hit him on a full run at about 75 yards, back in the ribs, angling forward. I suppose that might have been a 'bang-flop' but he had momentum on his side as he managed a beautifully executed somersault and never got up.

.358 Norma Magnum with 250gr Speer. A 350lb boar was ambling towards me and, as he turned around a tree at 40 or so yards, presented a nice broadside shot which I took. His pace didn't change and he wandered between a couple of downfalls and out of sight. I hightailed it over there and he was another 40 yards or so away when I took the second shot. At that, he took another few steps and fell. There was only a single wound so I assume the first shot was deflected by a branch or some unseen interference.

.35 Newton also with 250gr Speers. Broadside shot at a 300lb sow at probably 30 yards. At the shot, the hog hunched up like it was going to take off and I was thinking, 'Not this again!' (First hog taken after the Bulletproof Pig event.) It took a few steps while I loaded another round and fell down.

.358 STA also with 250gr Speers. Very nice boar quartering towards me at maybe 30 yards. Shot entered near side chest and exited back in the ribs. Took 2 more steps and fell. The skinner, upon opening that one up, turned to me ans said, "What did you DO to this thing?" It was a bit of a mess inside. Book velocity is right near 2900 and may be pushing the upper limit for that bullet.

And finally, not a 35 caliber. A .416 Taylor with a 400gr Hornady. A 400+lb boar was shot in a lovely broadside tight in behind the front leg. Needless to say, it was a pass through. That pig took off at full speed however it was in a circle maybe 20 yards in diameter. I stood there in slack-jawed wonder as it made nearly 3 complete laps with blood shooting out both sides before falling into a heap. It looked like the scene of a particularly gruesome ax murder what with the blood all over.

I've prattled on too long so we'll skip the deer until another day.

The average 300 gr .45-70 bullet is basically a pure lead hollowpoint with a thin jacket. Most either fragment or flatten out to the size and shape of a 50 cent peice. None of which equates penetration. If a load will not consistently exit a deer on a double lung shot the bulllet is probably to soft. I have killed around a dozen deer and hogs with the 405 Remington or 400 gr Speer at 1800-2000 with no complaints. They penetrate great and still expand.

People like the energy dump theories but in reality velocity and bullet shape are what cause damage and tissue destruction. Anything below say 700 FPS makes a narrow wound Chanel with a small stretch cavity. So on those bullets that "dump" their energy in the first few inches have massive wound channels right at first quickly taper off to a small hole until the bullet stops.

On a larger harder to slow bullet the bullet expands at first making a larger cavity but doesn't have the rapid velocity loss that a lighter softer bullet would have. The now larger expanded bullet is traveling faster causing damage throughout the animal until it exits.

Personally I would rather have a coke can size wound all the way through an animal then a basketball size wound the first 1/3 then a pencil size the rest of the way. You will get some more spectacular kills with the latter, also some spectacular losses. With the former they may or may not drop at the shot but won't go far and you have two holes leaking blood thus causing more consistent results in the long run.

Its all about where you hit'm not what you hit'm with. The very first pig I ever killed, 57 years ago. I shot with a 22lr Remington 510. He was looking straight at me, one shot between the eyes and he didn't even twitch.

Bullet effectiveness is all relative and dependent on the application.

We have shot a number of deer with the 5.56mm loaded with bulk Nosler 55gr soft points and when shot like this have always dropped into their tracks so hard they bounced.

We have shot a number of deer with the 12 bore Express rifle like this and they have all dropped in their tracks so hard they bounced.

The pigs shot with the .72 caliber round ball also went down without any drama.

Cheers,

Byron

Several factors are involved.....

1) the animal itself, body type

2) shot placement, shocking strike on vitals

3) bullet construction, soft or hard jacketed/cast, shape of point

4) bullet velocity, higher velocity will add to the shocking ability of the bullet

5) the activity of the animal at the time of the shot, if the animal is amped up good chance it will run a ways, at rest and relaxed, might drop at the spot of being hit.

Personally I believe heavy large caliber bullets running 1900-2200 fps will put more of a thump on a large body animal than a lighter, smaller caliber bullet. Noticed I said large body, I don't believe it applies to whitetails, a 24-30 caliber Ballistic Tip will hit deer like lighting and cause a bigger shock effect than a large slower caliber bullet, even with a not so great shot placement. Screaming BT's just seem to turn their lights out.

Now having said that, I have seen large hogs, in a relaxed state take short range hits with large bullets and high tail it out of the area. Have seen 300-350 pounder take a good shot from a 7-30 Waters with a SST bullet out of a 14" TC and drop on it's nose.

My biggest hog, 600+ pounder was hit with a heavy jacket 400gr SP from a 405 Winchester, doing 1900 fps and it rolled on it side and never moved an inch. Hit a almost 400 pounder with a 400gr heavy jacket SP from a 416 Ruger, decent shot placement but upon being hit the hog turned hard right and came downhill straight at me with only it's rear end working, her chin to chest was dragging on the ground, bulldozing is what I call it, took two more 400 grainers to stop her.

It the end the only way to ensure a drop shot is a head shot with a cannon like a 416 Ruger, very messy with no head left but it won't run. Other than that it is a crap shoot what the animal will do, just too many factors involved.

Gunner

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