utter gun handling failure at crucial moment...

by Rob Leahy ⌂ @, Prescott, Arizona, Wednesday, July 09, 2014, 11:32 (3732 days ago)

utter gun handling failure at crucial moment...

by John K., Wednesday, July 09, 2014, 17:39 (3732 days ago) @ Rob Leahy

That is pretty bad.

He did not "Rise to the occasion"

by Rob Leahy ⌂ @, Prescott, Arizona, Wednesday, July 09, 2014, 17:42 (3732 days ago) @ John K.

despicable, despicable as hell.

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Of the Troops & For the Troops

I dunno

by bob, Wednesday, July 09, 2014, 19:41 (3732 days ago) @ Rob Leahy

seems to me that a lack of training always equals a lack of performance.
bob

my point entirely

by Rob Leahy ⌂ @, Prescott, Arizona, Wednesday, July 09, 2014, 20:42 (3732 days ago) @ bob

...

--
Of the Troops & For the Troops

The idiot could have CLUBBED the bear with the rifle

by stonewalrus, Wednesday, July 09, 2014, 21:14 (3732 days ago) @ Rob Leahy

And had a better outcome.

I wonder....

by rob @, Wednesday, July 09, 2014, 22:53 (3732 days ago) @ Rob Leahy

If L1 went Pew! Pew! Pew! As he/she pulled on the trigger each time before ejecting the unfired shells. It's too bad a kid had to die over a pathetic lack of shooting skills. That's what happens when you disarm a society...a gun becomes just another complicated machine that nobody can operate rather than a comfortable friend. I bet L1 could operate a "smart" phone though.

Have heard several such stories over the years...

by Brian A, Thursday, July 10, 2014, 08:08 (3731 days ago) @ Rob Leahy

Including my own uncle, a WWII Marine vet, who was out deer hunting with my father when a nice buck walked in front of his stand, he pulled up his old Winchester 94 and proceeded to empty it, sure he had shot the deer. He called my dad to help him look for a blood trail and when standing where he fired from to get their bearings, my dad found all the unfired cartridges on the ground. He had apparently gotten such a case of 'Buck Fever', he had simply worked the action, never pulling the trigger, and did not even realize it.

Lighten up....

by Byron, Thursday, July 10, 2014, 09:24 (3731 days ago) @ Brian A

Sorry, but in my opinion you all need to just settle down and consider just what happened here.

The last thing that this guy expected was to be standing next to a bear killing a child and his mind simply couldn't get around it and he just quit thinking for a bit.

Even in low stress situations, people often forget how to do things that they think come naturally to them.

Watch most practical shooting games and you will regularly see guys do things that make no sense. They will hit the mag release when they want to drop the safety or pull the trigger when they want to put the safety on or all manner of odd things and I bet most of you have done the same. I know I have.

Unless one is REALLY trained up the stuff that seems to come naturally simply falls apart when things get scary. The only way around it is to train realistically enough and often enough the the body runs the gun on autopilot while the mind solves the problem at hand.

This is why force on force training is REQUIRED for one that carries a sidearm. Unless one has practiced moving and drawing while being shot at or pushed around they just won't know what to do when they are shot at or pushed around. One who says they are comfortable and 100% confident in their abilities is just fooling themselves and setting up for a real bad situation if things actually do go south.

Last weekend I watched my 15 year old son get centered with a burst out of a electric airsoft M4 and get hit square on the Adams apple and lower lip. You can be assured that it hurt a lot. He didn't miss a lick and finished the drill without a hitch. He has done this stuff thousands of times. Bad ass "gunfighters" have no chance against these teenagers who shoot it out with each other every weekend. Other boys who had not experienced this forgot which way was up when they were shot.

When faced with an unbelievable event, the man with the rifle forgot what to do. It happens to the best of us.

When faced with a real life and death problem, you don't rise to the occasion. You revert to your training.

Settle down and lighten up on the guy.

Byron

I'm not sure how I want to word this...

by rob @, Thursday, July 10, 2014, 12:51 (3731 days ago) @ Byron

I certainly don't want to offend anyone OR come across as a know it all. I think some force on force training can be beneficial, just as sparring is beneficial over simply shadow boxing or practicing martial arts moves by oneself. However, even sparring isn't real until the other guy is actually using lethal force to take you out or kill you. Force on force is still shooting people with non lethal plastic bb's and everyone going into it knows it's not lethal. Getting shot in the lip with a bb isn't a fight stopper, but depending on the angle, with a .22 LR it's lights out. You're not gonna keep shooting it out and emptying your 9mm after taking a real hit to the cns like they do with BB guns. Gabe always says no one has any rounds left in their gun after a force on force drill proving that hi capacity is important...at least that was his last doctrine before I finally blew him off as nothing but a salesman (but I digress). Yeah!!! You have no rounds left, because it's bb's and not terminal. There is a huge difference between kids shooting each other with BB guns and a grown man (or kid these days) who has no moral reservation about drilling your head with a bullet and never thinking twice as well as those who carry guns for law enforcement or defense...some of who can and will do what they must when the ball drops and some who, no matter how much training, believe they can, but won't. Just my take.

No offence taken.......

by Byron, Thursday, July 10, 2014, 17:19 (3731 days ago) @ rob

Realistic training is the only way to program the instinctive response to stressful situations.

Without beating the old dead horse, everyone should read and take to heart Col Dave Grossman's books "On Combat" and "On Killing".

He is a (the) world renowned expert on the emotional and physical responses to violence. He has studied and referenced 100s of years of military history and how realistic training fundamentally changes ones behavior when faced with danger.

One of the most interesting aspects is the documented statistics that through WW2 only 20% of all combat troops actually could bring themselves to shoot at the enemy. Only 2 in 10 would shoot. The reason was that while they spent a great deal of time developing marksmanship skills they practiced at shooting at bulls eye's across a grassy field and just could not bring themselves to shoot another.

Study in force multipliers quickly showed that troops trained at shooting at lifelike targets in a more realistic format quickly programmed out that basic human instinct not to harm another and that the number that would engage went way up.

This change in training let to stats that in Korea half would shoot, in Viet Nam close to 75% and now almost all American combat troops will shoot if they get half a chance. This is through training that is not much difference than kids playing airsoft in the backyard or first person video shooter games.

FYI in my very limited experience, a amateur YMCA boxer who spars a bit on every week or two can knock most thugs stiff in a couple of seconds. The thug is mean and intent on harm but still know match.

Realistic training gives a one an advantage that cannot be denied.

Peace,

Byron

What's realistic about people shooting at you...

by cas, Thursday, July 10, 2014, 17:33 (3731 days ago) @ Byron

…with things that aren't going to kill you?


Maybe not everyone thinks the same way, but I know I did things, took chances that I wouldn't have had they been shooting real bullets at me. I couldn't help. Maybe I can't pretend hard enough.

I've seen over 30 years of the force on force training...

by Sarge ⌂ @, Central Misery, Friday, July 11, 2014, 07:26 (3730 days ago) @ rob

evolution and I am inclined to agree. A BB gun fight does not equal a gun fight and everybody involved knows that at the outset. We still see people do stupid. self destructive things like turn their back on an armed assailant, committed to killing them, at ranges where the assailant can't miss them. Some people will never acquire the killer instinct no matter how you train them.

If you look hard at successful gunfighters over the past 200 years you will see some common denominators. An intimate familiarity with their weapons, the ability to kill without compunction and commit to the fight until the opponent is vanquished. They did not allow their opponents the opportunity get first hits or to drive the battle. Some were good and some were bad, but none of these guys played at gunfighting.

The bear attack story is just sad and that's all I can say about it.

Lighten up.... DITTOS

by Hobie ⌂ @, Shenandoah Valley of Virginia, Thursday, July 10, 2014, 17:11 (3731 days ago) @ Byron

.

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Sincerely,

Hobie

Lighten up.... DITTOS

by Hobie ⌂ @, Shenandoah Valley of Virginia, Thursday, July 10, 2014, 17:12 (3731 days ago) @ Hobie

He will have to live with this all the rest of his life.

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Sincerely,

Hobie

Reminds me of...

by Slow Hand ⌂ @, Indiana, Friday, July 11, 2014, 06:52 (3730 days ago) @ Brian A

Reading about dug up Civil War rifles that had several layers of powder and ball shoved down the tube. We'll never know if it was a guy just trying to look like he was fighting or if he had a mental misfire and just kept loading without ever firing.

Might also be new guy picked up dropped gun and tried

by stonewalrus, Friday, July 11, 2014, 11:02 (3730 days ago) @ Slow Hand

Loading it. In the panic of war it is hard telling.

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