Lone wolfers FYI

by stonewalrus, Friday, June 20, 2014, 08:32 (3751 days ago)

LW crazies in the US are being encouraged on Twitter by their foreign fighter brethren in Syria to attack churches in the US. Owing to their nature, could be any size church to make people think it could happen anywhere. Carry often - and with plenty of ammo...

Yep.

by MR, Friday, June 20, 2014, 09:42 (3751 days ago) @ stonewalrus

.

Lone wolfers FYI

by StoneWolf, Friday, June 20, 2014, 11:41 (3751 days ago) @ stonewalrus

And don't let others know, you never know who they might mention it to or who may overhear making you a high priority target.

Or the little old ladies in church might freak out...

by stonewalrus, Friday, June 20, 2014, 11:59 (3751 days ago) @ StoneWolf

Nm

Or the little old ladies in church might freak out...

by Cherokee @, Medina, Ohio, Friday, June 20, 2014, 19:27 (3751 days ago) @ stonewalrus

We have CCW people authorized in our church. Its not general knowledge who. Some folks don't like it but the Preacher and Deacons initiated it and the church voted for it.

Lone wolfers FYI

by Sarge ⌂ @, Central Misery, Friday, June 20, 2014, 19:30 (3751 days ago) @ StoneWolf

I posted this on another forum regard the tactics, or lack thereof, of the CCW'er killed in the recent Las Vegas shootings-

From the Daily Mail article- bold type mine.

Quote:
Wilcox, who was legally carrying a concealed weapon, told his friends he was going to confront the gunman - not realizing that he had an accomplice.

Wilcox went from the checkout area to Jerad Miller

and (then) pulled his concealed firearm.

But before he could fire, Amanda Miller shot him in the ribs and Wilcox collapsed.

Police have confirmed that Wilcox was not able to get off a shot before he died.

What did this guy think he was going to do, detain the gunman?

Why did he leave the checkout area and GO to the gunman?

Why didn't he pull his gun until he reached him?

1. Evaluate. Fools rush in...
2. Do not give up cover, distance or the element of surprise.
3. If you can shoot, distance is your friend.
4. If you have justification to shoot someone and are committed to intervene, then SHOOT them until they don't need shot anymore. Drive the OODA cycle like a dragster.
5. Once committed, hesitation will get you killed.

Lots of people can shoot. Most aren't gunfighters.

by Miles Fortis ⌂ @, CIVITATES AMERICAE, Friday, June 20, 2014, 19:54 (3751 days ago) @ Sarge

There's a big difference.

Lots of people can shoot. Most aren't gunfighters.

by BobM, Ohio, Friday, June 20, 2014, 19:58 (3751 days ago) @ Miles Fortis

Very very true.

Lots of people can shoot. Most aren't gunfighters.

by Cherokee @, Medina, Ohio, Saturday, June 21, 2014, 07:32 (3750 days ago) @ Miles Fortis

But, how do you find out if you can do it ? Training only prepares one, until the first time, you are still untested.

Training at gun fighting instead of shooting.....

by Byron, Saturday, June 21, 2014, 08:28 (3750 days ago) @ Cherokee

Force on force training is remarkable in how quickly it shows ones weaknesses and strengths. It is the only way to even begin to grasp what really is happening when two or more start shooting at each other. It is also easy and convenient.

If one carries a sidearm for "personal protection" they should also have a high quality airsoft pistol that resembles their carry gun. This goes for the M4 as well.

Go into your backward with a friend also similarly armed, put on some goggles and start shooting at each other. Do it at night with a flashlight and see how it goes. The learning curve is not steep, it's vertical. You will get shot a lot in the beginning. Then slowing things will start to come together and you will begin to understand what is happening.

We do this regularly and see that 3 Gun and IPSC masters have utterly no chance against teenage boys who play airsoft in the backyard most weekends. NO CHANCE!

First and foremost. To "stand and deliver" will get you shot almost every time, regardless of whether you are fast enough on the first shot to hit your man. Once more, almost every single time you will be shot if you stand still and shoot back.

If one considers the best possible outcome in a gun fight is to not get shot, then a clear pattern of action becomes obvious very quickly. Move and move fast!

At the bell, jerk your sidearm and jump sideways as fast as possible while shooting at your man. In that almost all shootings take place within 10 feet this should be one handed point shooting. Continue moving quickly (quickly!) sideways while rapidly (rapidly!) shooting until you are out of ammunition or your man is done. More often than not you will not be shot doing this and probably will have got your guy.

You won.

Things become clear during these exercises. You focus on the gun and you will be shot in the hands a lot. Being hit right on the edge of the little finger nail with a airsoft pellet at conversational distance will really hurt. Train at night and you will find the a weapon mounted light is a bullet magnet that will get you shot. Hold the flash light way out to the side and way from your body. Never get behind the light and use it sparingly.

Read Col David Grossman's books, "On Combat" and "On Killing". They will open your eyes. It is hard for one untrained in "Force on Force" to really shoot another person. Don't fool yourself and think that "I've made up my mind that when the time comes". When the time comes, most just cannot pull the trigger on another person. Most are just not up to it unless they have trained past this human instinct. This is why "first person shooter games" are figure so highly in active shooter incidents. They condition one to be able to shoot another without hesitation.

The first time I went into a shoot house at night with a flashlight and loaded HiPower I knew the targets were steel and cardboard but when I saw them wearing clothes, I just couldn't shoot for a couple of seconds at first as I wrestled with the problem of shooting something that really looked like a person. With just a bit of training you get over this but at the beginning is a wild feeling that makes the hair stand up on your neck and your hands shake.

So then, get a high quality airsoft pistol and M4 and start shooting it out with a friend. You will look like you have the measles at the end of the day but will be miles ahead of EVERBODY else that shoots at targets until they are comfortable.

Read Grossmans books. They are eye openers.

Byron

Training at gun fighting instead of shooting.....

by Cherokee @, Medina, Ohio, Saturday, June 21, 2014, 08:53 (3750 days ago) @ Byron

Thanks, good suggestion

Training at gun fighting instead of shooting.....

by Otony, Saturday, June 21, 2014, 09:25 (3750 days ago) @ Byron

Excellent post, sir. Thank you!

Otony

Train like you fight. Fight like you train

by Miles Fortis ⌂ @, CIVITATES AMERICAE, Saturday, June 21, 2014, 13:49 (3750 days ago) @ Byron

Even the Roman Legions did it.

"nor would he be mistaken that should call those their exercises bloodless battles, and their battles, bloody exercises." Flavius Josephus

Byron, once agian, great information! I like the Roman quote

by Rob Leahy ⌂ @, Prescott, Arizona, Saturday, June 21, 2014, 18:45 (3750 days ago) @ Miles Fortis

too...

--
Of the Troops & For the Troops

Byron, any recommendations on air soft, specifically

by cable, Monday, June 23, 2014, 12:27 (3748 days ago) @ Byron

where to buy them, what prices and models and brands ??

i have never tried this, but it sounds like a sensible way to train.

any info appreciated.

Hobbytron.com has pretty good prices

by stonewalrus, Monday, June 23, 2014, 13:25 (3748 days ago) @ cable

There are some licensed copies out there for Smith, Ruger and Colt. You probably want CO2. I have the ones where you have to rack the slide each time - slow process for force on force. The electrics from what I have seen don't have enough oomph to much more than get them out the barrel. Look for something doing around 300 fps. The 150 fps ones have no range at all.

thanks, will check there

by cable, Monday, June 23, 2014, 13:36 (3748 days ago) @ stonewalrus

:-P

Sarge...what Is OODA ?

by Gary G, Saturday, June 21, 2014, 21:44 (3750 days ago) @ Sarge
edited by Gary G, Sunday, June 22, 2014, 15:48

Thanks.

Sarge...was Is OODA ?

by Slow Hand ⌂ @, Indiana, Saturday, June 21, 2014, 22:01 (3750 days ago) @ Gary G

Observe
Orient
Decide
Act

It was originLly developed for fighter pilots. Works well in self defense, defensive driving, and really just every day life. Once you learn about it, it's amazing how often you realize you are 'in the loop'!

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop

Also, being a loop, it's unending. In a combat situation you and your enemy are constantly trying to shortcut each other's loops mocking them start over.

In some ways it is like chess - the good players are

by stonewalrus, Saturday, June 21, 2014, 22:17 (3750 days ago) @ Slow Hand

Thinking several moves ahead.

Observe orient decide act

by stonewalrus, Saturday, June 21, 2014, 22:02 (3750 days ago) @ Gary G

Sort of think on the run, constantly re-assessing the situation. Here is what Wikipedia says:

The phrase OODA loop refers to the decision cycle of observe, orient, decide, and act, developed by military strategist and USAF Colonel John Boyd. Boyd applied the concept to the combat operations process, often at the strategic level in military operations. It is now also often applied to understand commercial operations and learning processes.

Sarge...was Is OODA ?

by Sarge ⌂ @, Central Misery, Saturday, June 21, 2014, 23:04 (3750 days ago) @ Gary G

"A famous German Fighter Ace was asked, what is your secret?
Answer: I have an acute awareness for the back of my neck.

He was also asked what he thought about the P-51 Mustang. He response: Three of the
four that I shot down today did not even know I was in the same sky with them.


Notice he did not talk about hardware here. He drilled down to the inner man."

http://www.strategosintl.com/pdfs/OODA.pdf

Thank You Gents

by Gary G, Sunday, June 22, 2014, 15:47 (3749 days ago) @ Sarge

..

It's something the Republic party needs to master...

by rob @, Monday, June 23, 2014, 22:14 (3748 days ago) @ Gary G

The democraps (communist party of USA ) keeps throwing a series of offensive strikes at them. They observe not, they are somewhere in la la land, can't decide what to do or how to act when what they should be doing is developing a pro-America platform, putting it before the people of this country and hourly throwing the anti-American policies of the democraps in front of the voting populous putting the Dems on the defense and doing it so fast, so hard and so continuously it makes their head spin:)

OODA applies to every contested event...

by Sarge ⌂ @, Central Misery, Tuesday, June 24, 2014, 20:11 (3747 days ago) @ rob

You are either driving the contest or it is driving you.

Very true!

by rob @, Tuesday, June 24, 2014, 20:20 (3747 days ago) @ Sarge

No message, no message, there really ain't no message. There is literally no subject matter here, just a bunch of key board babble:)

It applies even when the 'contestants' don't know....

by Hoot @, Diversityville, Liberal-sota, Tuesday, June 24, 2014, 21:19 (3747 days ago) @ Sarge

there is a contest.

Witness your 'defensive driving' reference above.

It would seem that part of the first 'O' is to recognize you are in a contest...

Very informative.....thanks for sharing this info

by John Meeker @, United States, Monday, June 23, 2014, 11:07 (3748 days ago) @ stonewalrus

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