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Some time past I posted the conflict between common sense and reality regarding the "original magic killer bullet"...the .38 Special loaded with a 148gr hollow base wadcutter loaded backward.

I had grand plans about scientific method including plaster casts and a number of the board bit and provided me with a much bigger supply of said bullets than I requested for the "experient" than required...

Every teenage boy with a .38 and a loading press has cooked up some of this ammo firmly convinced that it is the ticket, real deal and sure fire dead bang on bad guys...

There is a great deal of info posted on the net about the use of .38 wadcutters as a self defense load and some of the old time real deal gunfighter actually used them to good effect....seems the midrange load is easy to hit with (always good), the sharp edge would dig in and penetration was "adequate"...

So..about a year late and a dollar short for sure...I loaded up my super bullet for the experient....148 grains over 2.7gr titegroup for 700 fps from the Bodyguard...

Fired into water at 5' (NYPD stats document 90% of shootouts within 5') the round split the first jug about like a .22 LR highspeed, went thru the second and cracked the front surface of the third....about 12" in water...bullet shows expansion to .5"....again the impact about the same as a .22 rifle....

Fired into saturated paper at 12" gave about 3.5" penetration....bullet swapped ends about 1" in and came to rest point first....little expansion...bullet started to bend over as it swapped ends....bullet path was bullet diameter....less damage than .22 HighSpeed from a rifle....

Frankly I was surprised about the poor performance....this was a terrible choice for self-defense....

As an aside....the .38 Treasury load gives penetration in water over 2 feet and blows a two inch hole a foot deep in soaking wet paper....

At least to me...the choice is clear if one chooses a .38 J frame...

Byron

Set-up for the shot...
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After the first shot into the water...
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Entrance shot into wet paper shot from 12"
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Hole where bullet stopped about three inched into the paper after swapping ends
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Byron

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That is surprisingly little expansion. I'd have thought that soft staged bullet would have opened ip more than that.

Here are some of my cast Keith hollow points shot into water jugs from my centinniel.

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They were cast of 20:1 and driven fairly hard from the little J Frame. The mangles one dove into the gravel the jugs were sitting on but started to expand. Nothing like shooting a J frame from prone position!

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The hollow base wadcutter are terrible when loaded backwards.....

As stated I matched the classic mid-range target load with the bullet backwards...

Regardless of velocity I was unable to get them to shoot half straight...most keyholed within 20 feet....

Fired into soaking wet paper they swapped ends during the first inch of penitration...

The Keith bullet is a completely different thing altogether....

I was in error to call the gold standard .38 stopper (158gr lead hollow point) the Treasury load...it is actually the FBI load from the '70 and generally considered the top of the .38 J frame food chain....the Treasury load is a 110gr jacketed hollowpoint...effectiveness is widely disputed...very mixed results...

Your load is probably close to the FBI round and as good as it gets for you pocket pistol....

The hollow based wadcutter need to be loaded the way it was designed...it works perfect when done so...perfect midrange target or small game shooting....

Byron

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Agreed on all. I can't remember my load, but I'm pretty sure it was a stout load of unique. I usually have a box I them loaded up at any time. I'm not a fan of carrying handloads fr self defense but I am a fan of being prepared!

The hollow points are a pain to cast but I have a two cavity solid mold of the same bullet that I shoot a good bit of. Another option is Hornady's swaged SWC-HP. It's pretty soft and expands well at .38 special velocities. They are fairly inexpensive and come in 3 or 500 round boxes. I'd be interested to see what one would do to a coyote or groundhog launched out of a .357 lever action!

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Of the Troops & For the Troops

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:-P I did the same thing when it was the rage at the time(mid 60's)Ran them up to about 850 fps. Got about the same results basically, Maybe a little more expansion in wet pac. But gave it up as something I wouldn't carry myself. Accuracy past 15-20' was eratic. One never knows when he mightb need 25-30 yd. dependability.FWIW dept

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I never could keep them from keyholing.

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going to the trouble.

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Of the Troops & For the Troops

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Within the limitations of common handgun calibers, the overwhelming bulk of what a person who has been shot will do, is determined by...what a person who has been shot will do. Precious few handgun hits render a target either instantly unconscious, or physically/neurologically incapacitated. OTOH, the scale of human reaction runs the gamut from falling down and howling when shot with a BB, to remaining active, and lethal, for an astounding amount of time after multiple hits with any handgun caliber. The determining factors along this scale just have one heck of a lot more to do with the human, than they do the caliber/bullet.

So despite our many decades of study and research on "stopping power", the single most life-saving element of the complex equation for us good guys, is the "reality" that the overwhelming majority of humans share a common reaction to being shot, which is a *mental* reaction. "I've been shot!" means, stop, lay down, or sit down, and hurt like hell. Bill Jordan devotes a whole chapter to overcoming this for us good guys, to stay in the fight, and perservere. It's not easy, and few scrotes have read his book.

Don't misunderstand, I think the focus and the work, and the research has blessed us with the best guns and ammo we have ever enjoyed. I have zero objections to upping the odds, every time, and any way we can. My preference, if a gunfight is just going to happen, is a 4" Colt Woodsman, with a magic round of .22 that turns my adversary into a lingering cloud of pink mist, depending on the wind. Until I have that, I want my adversary in that giant percentage that lays down when shot, no matter what I have hit him with.

JLF

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Two shootings, both with .38 wadcutters loaded in the normal fashion for target loads.

#1 was a knife guy who tried to run a PPC shooter off 'his' boat dock because, well, mostly because he was a big mean drunk dumbass. Model 66 loaded with WC's was in PPC's tacklebox. Knifey persisted and took two rounds mid torso, walked off the dock and keeled over dead. This was a long time ago but IIRC one round exited, one stayed inside.

#2 was a street robbery planned poorly. Victim shot perp about a WC-stoked 3" left of center, level with the navel. Folded over, died a couple of days later.

Both those fellers were sufficiently deterred from rude behavior and repeating their mistakes.

Wut do it mean? simply that it worked well enough in two instances.

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I don't think there is any question that there are some handgun loads that are better than others. Lee has saved many lives with his Super-Vel loads and inspired the major ammo makers to gang up, duplicate his work and put his out of business.

That said, there is no magic bullet and I still follow Keith's counsel to use the biggest gun you can shoot well. The shoot well part is the key. A 38 Special WC or two in the right place is better than a hit on the margins with the bigger or better bullet.

Most of us can rattle out a cylinderful of wadcutters with the same speed and accuracy we can do the same with a 22. That in itself, is no little factor in this complex equation of good guy, gun, and bad guy.

My defense plan is rather simple. Keep a 45 at home and a 380 in the pocket. The 380 is loaded with Sundles's best stuff. A major part of my place is to be careful where I go, who I contact and stay alert at all times. Oh yes, I do keep a 40 S&W in the truck with several hicap mags.

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Some years ago I traded my way into a Ruger #1 in .458WM.

I mostly shoot 45-70 level cast-bullet loads, but was interested in the ultimate deer stopper load.

I loaded a Remington 405gr FN bullet to 2300fps. Thats about 4500 foot-pounds of energy.

Now that Remington bullet is designed for about 1500fps, and I knew that it would be very explosive at 2300fps. I thought of it as a low-tech ballistic tip that would fragment and do extensive damage on 100-150lb game.

I hit the 120lb doe through the shoulder and both lungs, blowing a 2" diameter hole all the way through. You could put your fist in the exit wound.

That doe ran 60yds before piling up . . . . just like it would have done if hit by a .357mag.

That day I gave up on stopping power.

If 4500fp will not "stop" a 120lb doe, then the difference between a 9mm and a .45ACP is academic.

Bob

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Last big mule deer buck I shot was with a Ruger No. 3 in 45-70. The bullet was the 350 Hornaday RN (much tougher than the 405 factory) over 53/3031 for about 1.8K fps. That was all my shoulder could take.

The bullet took him high through the lungs and he dropped in his tracks. The entrance hole was caliber and the exit hole was 1.25 inches. Range was about 75 yards.

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Stopped deer DRT with:

30-06 150gr at 2800fps and 180gr at 2600fps
.303 British 180gr at 2400
.45 Colt 290gr RCBS at 1200fps (carbine)
.458WM 375gr cast at 1700fps
.458WM 525gr cast "solid" at 1500fps

But I've also hit deer with most of those same loads and had them travel some distance. Once the deer was poorly hit. Mostly they were good or very good hits.

Conclusion: Hitting the right place is most important (spine/neck shots work quickly). Have enough gun to make a hole all the way through. The rest is mostly pure luck.

I can tell little difference in the results I get from the 30-06 and the .45 Colt. The '06 leaves a better blood trail, but the deer don't seem to stop much quicker.

I never get time to shoot deer 2x or 3x, but I'm sure that multiple hits are quite important.

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Some years back NYPD did a study of all persons shot since the days when TR was PC. This covered everything from 22 Short to 458 Mag rifle. After all the data was collected and numbers crunched, the only conclusion they came away with, it was where they were shot that mattered. What they were shot with was not all that important.

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One winter, we shot eight doe with a Marlin 783 .22mag using hollowpoints. All were within 100 yds. Using neck shots, seven of them dropped where they stood, not another step. One ran maybe ten yards before piling up. No finishing needed, all were stone dead when we got to them.

JLF

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